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No original Sin

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George P. Koshy View Drop Down
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  Quote George P. Koshy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2008 at 9:02pm
Dear Zang Pro Cool,
 
You wrote, "Every Child is born innocent. They have to carry their cross and they would be punished or rewarded for their own good or bad deeds."
 
Could you provide scriptures to support this?  That is a child is born "to carry" his/her cross.
 
On the previous posting you wrote, "

There are two types of sin:

(1)       Hereditary received from the fallen nature of Adam/Eve.

(2)      Individual iniquities"

 
When a child receives the sinful nature by hereditary as a child of Adam, how is it innocent of sin?  Do we read in the Bible that that which is born of the flesh is flesh?
  
Shalom malekim!!!
George P. Koshy
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  Quote mathewgeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 3:35am
 

Dear Zatang

 

Again your statements are flawed.

Please take note that SIN NEVER EXISTED (in mankind) until Adam sinned by disobeying God’s commandment.

Even though Eve ‘initiated’ the disobedience, the commitment of sin took place when they both ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (I personally think ‘WHEN ADAM ATE THE FRUIT’). And in the Bible throughout it is mentioned as the sin of the first man or first Adam.

They never had the prior knowledge of good and evil but had the knowledge of the commandment of God regarding the effect  of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in them.

THEREFORE THEY ACQUIRED THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL only after disobeying God’s commandment.

 

The hypothetical question of “HAD THEY BEEN UNAWARE OF THE SIN OF EATING THAT FRUIT, THEY COULD HAVE PLEADED IGNORANCE” is absurd.

If they were unaware as you mentioned, then eating the fruit would never had been an act of sin, and therefore God’s punishment would never had been there. IN THIS CASE THE QUESTION OF PLEADING NEVER EXISTED whether for ignorance or for mercy.

I fail to understand your usage of “born innocent”.  (The nature of sin and being innocent are entirely different matter).

Some human nature are inherited from a babe’s parents such as the ability to speak, cry, laugh, rational thinking, etc (to name some) of which the DEATH is the most prominent. As the babe grows day by day we see that it brings forth the fruits of the sinful nature gradually.

THIS SINFUL NATURE IS WHAT IS INHERITED FROM THE PARENTS OF A CHILD.

Certainly the child is apparently innocent when it is born but keeps exposing the sinful nature as it grows.

THE EFFECT IS DUE TO THE “ORIGINAL SIN” only.

Please read the word of God prayerfully and carefully and ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to reveal the mysteries therein.

 

God bless

Mathew

Ps. 19: 14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight , O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer
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Zatang Pro Cool View Drop Down
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  Quote Zatang Pro Cool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2008 at 11:06am
Oh now you are telling me a self contradictory statement

If they were unaware as you mentioned, then eating the fruit would never had been an act of sin, and therefore God’s punishment would never had been there. IN THIS CASE THE QUESTION OF PLEADING NEVER EXISTED whether for ignorance or for mercy.

Now you yourself saying a self-contradictory statement.

I ask the same question to you - Why did God punished them if they were unaware of the sin before eating the fruit. LOL

"
Certainly the child is apparently innocent when it is born but keeps exposing the sinful nature as it grows.

THE EFFECT IS DUE TO THE “ORIGINAL SIN” only"

Again back to square one, it means a person is raping, looting, murdering, stealing, abusing just because his great great great great Grandfather did a sin ??


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  Quote mathewgeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 4:23am
 

Dear Zatang

 

THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION IN WHAT I STATED. (PLEASE READ CAREFULLY).

I understand your deliberate attempt to confound me by attributing your own conditional and hypothetical question to me and say that it is contradictory.

My statement was “if they were unaware AS ZATANG MENTIONED………………………………………”.

SINCE GOD COMMANDED THEM OF THE CONSEQUENCES THEY WERE ABSOLUTELY “AWARE” AND CANNOT PLEAD IGNORANCE.

Your question in BOLD LETTERS WITH A SMILIE is your own FABRICATION and YOU ARE EXPECTED EITHER TO CORRECT IT OR GIVE A SATISFACTORY EXPLANATION yourselves.

 

IF YOU MAKE THINGS ‘BACK TO SQARE ONE’ FOR YOURSELF I AM NOBODY TO CORRECT YOU, BUT PRAY TO THE LOVING HEAVENLY FATHER TO GIVE YOU THE WISDOM TO UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES.

I would like to restate the latter part of your last sentence as follows:

YOUR STATEMENT IS: “it means a person is raping, looting, murdering, stealing, abusing just because his great great great great Grandfather did a sin”.

 

PLEASE READ IT THIS WAY: “it means a person is raping, looting, murdering, stealing, abusing just because THE FIRST MAN, ADAM, did the “ORIGINAL SIN”.

 

Dear Zatang, I may take my liberty to refrain from contributing to this thread unless your writings are candid and equitable.

 

God bless you

 

Mathew

Ps. 19: 14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight , O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer
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Zatang Pro Cool View Drop Down
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  Quote Zatang Pro Cool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2008 at 11:24am
As per you, if they were 'aware' of the consequence of the sin, then how come you are saying in that "THEREFORE THEY ACQUIRED THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL only after disobeying God’s commandment"
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  Quote job15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2008 at 11:49am
Zatang Pro Cool
 
Romans 7:17
As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
 
There is sin living in every human being. 
 
Every human born is sinner and so cannot reach God without having a redeemer to  redeem him from that sin. Someone having greater power than sin has to redeem us from our natural  sinful  state. Jesus Christ is THE ONLY SAVIOUR who  paid the  penalty of sin (of the whole  mankind). Christ Jesus paid the penalty of sin for the whole mankind. Christ Jesus  has redeemed us  from the curse of  sin. However to get  pardon for your sin (inborn sin & commited sins), you have to accept the free  gift  of Salvation found ONLY IN CHRIST JESUS.
 
This is the day of  salvation  for your  soul. If you accept Christ Jesus' remedy of sin by  accepting His shedding of blood on the curl  cross, His death and His bodily resurrection from the dead,  you  will be  saved. Your soul  will have eternal  peace with God. Otherwise you will be at enemity with God. If  you do  not  accept his FREE GIFT OF SALVATION found  ONLY IN CHRIST JESUS,  you have no one  to  blame.
 
We are the receipents of that inheritance (sin)  not  because we wanted it (to live inside our body)  but it naturally comes to us without our  knowledge and without our  consent!
 
Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
 
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  Quote nelnob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2008 at 8:58pm
Dear "zatang pro cool"
 
Well you have quoted a long article which you have borrowed from some article and pasted it on this forum , would you please let the forum members be  made aware that what was the first sin ever recorded in the Holy scriptures, the word of God.
 
Yours
 
 
Samuel.V.J
 
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever
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  Quote mathewgeorge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2008 at 6:01am
 
Dear zatang

 

Adam and Eve were AWARE of the commandment of God that they will die if they eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

This means that they had no knowledge of good and evil as indicated by the name of the tree itself before sinning.

 

They acquired the knowledge of good and evil only after disobeying this commandment of God.

 

Read the Bible and understand what God wants to tell you.

 

God bless you

 

Mathew

 

 

 

Ps. 19: 14
Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight , O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer
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  Quote childofgod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 June 2008 at 12:13pm

Dear Zatang Pro Cool

I was reading your posting from beginning to the end. It seems to me that you don’t believe in the Bible even though you wrote hundreds of references from the Bible.

Whether you believe the Bible or not, as long as you reading it let me ask you one question.

You have stated in your posting on 17 June 2008 that "So, Original sin has no effect on man. Every Child is born innocent. They have to carry their cross and they would be punished or rewarded for their own good or bad deeds"

From this statement I could understand that you don’t have surety on your eternity. So what is the point of living in this world with out knowing your eternity?

Once you reach there the place where God lives, you can not ask God “ God let me go back and correct myself” can you?

What is the different between Christianity and other Religion?

According to the Bible, I believe that only Christian (Christ live in him) can call the eternal God as Abba Father. Because the Spirit of God, who lives in him, testifies with him that he/she is the child of God.

Romans 8:15-16 

For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Romans 8:1

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

Dear friend, if you are not sure about your eternal life, please! Gain it before you leave this world.

If you have not yet gain your soul, please! Gain it before you leave this world.

You have a lot of knowledge about the Bible and the world but if you don’t have knowledge about your eternity, it is absolutely waste.

Matthew 16:26 

What good will it is for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

May God bless youSmile

J.S.S

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  Quote cpthomas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2009 at 1:37pm

Zatang,

Yes, God never created a sinner when He created  Adam. Originally Adam was a sinless man. Later Adam fell and he became a sinner. I think these are undisputed matters.
Then what happened? The very moment Adam sinned, death entered into him.
In God's eyes there are two men in this universe, Adam and Christ.  You can be either in Adam or in Christ. There is no third option. In Adam we ARE sinners, but by God's mercy, in Christ we ARE saints, not sinners.
In Adam we ALL sinned. In Adam we are born in sin. There in only one Man born of woman and still without sin in the whole human history, our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the only One born sinless. If you claim you were born sinless, then you are making yourself EQUAL with Jesus, which is nothg but blasphemy.
You should understand the difference between SIN and SINS in Bible. We are sinners not because we sin. Rather we sin because we are sinners. There is the law of SIN in our flesh and it was there even before we first committed sin. In Adam we are born sinners, wretched sinners worthy ONLY for eternal torment in the Lake of fire. But thanks to our gracious Lord. He came to rescue us by coming in the FORM of our fallen flesh and took care of our SIN as well as SINS on the cross. He initiated another law in us, the law of Spirit. Now the law of sin is not our master if we walk by the Spirit. Thanks be to God. He saved us from our SIN and our SINS by paying its price on the cross. Praise our Lord!
cpthomas
  
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