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are we of the same mind?

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doghter_of_zion View Drop Down
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  Quote doghter_of_zion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 June 2006 at 6:36pm

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

As you know that I’m neither as wise nor learned as you are (but thank God for the little He has revealed to me), I had been trying to find out as much as possible about Apostasy. I want to quote from the notes in my King James Study Bible. This is what’s written about Hebrews 6:4-6.

"This passage does not teach that one can lose his salvation through disbelief or apostasy. These verses refer to a hypothetical situation whereby the author stresses what would happen to a saved person if he could fall away. The author does not believe one can lose his salvation, or that his readers had (cf. v. 9); but he so speaks to demonstrate the folly some might have in imagining that they can turn back to Judaism without suffering loss. Though the author is not writing about his readers (v. 4, those), he still is writing for their sake (v. 9, you). If they shall fall away is the translation given to the fifth participle of the passage. This is a legitimate and even common grammatical usage by the author within the warning passages (cf. 2:3; 10:26 and even 6:8). The first four participles refer to actual blessings whereas number five describes a potential situation, and so can be translated unlike the first four.

The important point about Hebrew 6 is that it agrees with the general tenor of the Scripture concerning the security of the born-again believer. One basis for the security of the believer involves the promises recorded in God’s Word (vv. 18-20; 7:24, 25; 8:12; 10:10-14; John 10:28-30; Rom 8:28-39; Eph 1:13,14; 4:30; Phil. 1:6; 1John 5:13). Yet, an even stronger basis for security is found within the nature of the life God gives. Though conversion involves man’s will, it is God’s will that produces regeneration (John 5:24), from a child of the Devil to a son of God (Rom. 8:14-17). It is completed, regenerating work (10:14; Eph. 2:8-"You are saved", or "You have been saved and stand saved"-Greek perfect tense)."

About Heb 10:26-29:

Verses 26-31 contain the fourth warning passage of Hebrews (cf. 2:1-4). The surrounding verses (vv.19-39) contain related exhortations, but the warning itself is limited to these verses. They warn of the critical danger of turning for Christ’s once-for-all, perfect sacrifice back to their old ways. If we sin willfully reveals that this act is deliberate. It parallels the sin of Numbers 15:30, 31. When one willingly or defiantly disobeyed God, there was no sacrifice for such apostasy. He had to die. This is the nature of the sin in verse 26. Verse 28 seems to allude to Deuteronomy 17:2-7. These verses record that upon the testimony of two or three witnesses, death by stoning was the punishment for apostasy-going after and serving false gods (Duet. 17:2). Now in verse 29, the one who would despise the person of Jesus and His ministry as High Priest is worthy of even greater judgment. Verse 29 (due to the verb and participles used) should not be understood as judgment that has happened because of such apostasy, but as judgment that would happen should such apostasy occur. The author put his recipients and himself (we) under this warning just as he did in the earlier warnings. By so doing he demonstrates that the warnings are intended for the saved as well as for the unsaved. Yet, here, as in chapter 6, the author does not say that anyone has committed this sin. He describes what would happen, not what has happened. He is describing a hypothetical situation. The severe admonition of this warning, and all others in Scripture, is God’s means to ensure our perseverance.

Well, as I said before day before yesterday I was at my mentor’s house. He told me of another view of reading this, which he had read in a world famous Bible Commentary. According to the author of that book, he says that if believers commit apostasy, they become worthless for the Lord and for the Church and also he loses out on the crowns. He doesn’t lose his salvation.

As my mentor told me, that apostasy is coming very close to the truth and then falling away.

However the main debate we concluded lies behind the fact that: if apostasy can be committed by believers or for unbelievers, and if it is for unbelievers then can these apostates we saved in future or not?

However though my mentor still didn’t come to any conclusion, my beloved sister in Christ (my mentor’s wife) served us food. Suddenly this is what occurred to me. Suppose I had made that food. I had put poison in it. I give it to you to eat. Now since I know I put poison, I definitely wouldn’t eat it, however you don’t know of it, so you may eat it. However who-so-ever has that food, shall die, be it you or me-the result is sure. Death. Right? Now consider this. Believers who have witnessed the power or God, who has been regenerated, can’t fall back. However so it must be for the unbelievers. Now consider Heb 6:4-6. Here v. 4 and 5 gives the saving experience. How we know that? See this verse 4 "have tasted of the heavenly gift". When do believers receive the spiritual gifts? At the time of salvation isn’t it? So now relate to the example. True believers can’t fall back. Only the unsaved people can fall back. Now consider those unsaved people who may have heard of Person and works of Christ (either being born in Christian homes or from other sources) there may be two options. (1) They don’t believe it. (2) They understand that he is God and later despise Him. The later case I so believe is the apostate. However in vs. 6 we find the result of apostasy. In the Greek Bible, the "if" as in KJV is not there (my mentor said).

So here we find that the result is fixed: DEATH who-so-ever does it. So I feel that the apostates can’t be saved as they knowingly despise our Lord. I remembered a verse in the Bible where it says, whoever confess Me before men, him shall I confess before My Father and whoever doesn’t confess, his also I wont confess before My Father…. its something like this and this is from my memory(which is no doubt a bit weak, sorry).

Well, I know I may be wrong, tell me what you feel. Thanks for your patience.

God bless you all.

Love ya in HIM,

Tinka

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  Quote sambudhanoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2006 at 3:55pm

Dear Sister  daughter of zion

Hebrew chapter 6:4-6 & 10: 26-29 has different interpretations, people who believe the salvation can be lost always bring these words.

 

A true believer can be backslide, God will give time to repent and to re-instate, if one continually resist the Holy Spirit and continue to sin there will be different type of chastisement, but his salvation remains forever.

 

Heb 10:27  but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

 

Who is the adversary, the enemy, satan.

“fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire = hell

Hell is prepared for the enemy and the unbelievers also end up in it.

 

I believe and understand that these passages are mentioning about the unbelievers only,    as I stated in the youth forum.

 

You may please refer to the subject Security of Salvation in this forum.

 

God Bless You.

 

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  Quote George P. Koshy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2006 at 12:34am

Dear ‘doghter_of_zion’,

 

Your question of 17 June 2006 is to be considered as having two parts.  First, that is connected with ‘apostasy,’ and the other that is connected with ‘falling beyond.’

 

On Apostasy:

Apostasy is derived from the Greek word apostasia (apostasia = falling away, or falling beyond) and it appears in 2 Thess. 2:3 and Acts 21:21.

2 Thess. 2:3 – “Let not anyone deceive you in any manner, because [it will not be] unless the apostasy (falling away – KJV) have first come, and the man of sin have been revealed, the son of perdition.”

Acts 21:21 – And they have been informed concerning thee that thou teachest all the Jews among the nations apostasy from (forsake – KJV) Moses, saying that they should not circumcise their children, nor walk in the customs.”

 

It also have connection with the Greek word apostasion (apostasion = standing off, standing away, or falling beyond) and appears in Matt. 5:31; 19:7; and Mark 10:4.

Matt. 5:31 – “Whosoever shall put away (apostasion) his wife, let him give her a letter of divorce.”

Matt. 19:7 – Why then did Moses command to give a letter of divorce and to send her away (put her away – KJV).”

Mark 10:4 – “Moses allowed to write a bill of divorce, and to put her away.”

 

Observe that these two Greek words are basically the same and are derived from the same root verb stasis (stasis).  It is translated as ‘dissension,’ ‘insurrection,’ sedition,’ and ‘uproar.’

 

The prefix APO indicates a movement away from something or someone.  Therefore the ‘falling’ is ‘away’ from something.  If we follow the “law of first occurrence,” then from Matt. 5:31; 19:7; and Mark 10:4 in a divorce, the falling away is from the husband.  Similarly in Acts 21:21; Apostle Paul was accused of teaching the Jewish Christians among the Gentiles to ‘fall away’ from laws of Moses.  Finally, in 2 Thess. 2:3, the men are to fall away from Christ to the man of sin, the son of perdition.  This man of sin should appear in relation to the Jewish nation to lead them away from heir Messiah and to worship his idol.  This is what is meant by “apostasy.”  We read about the condition of man to fall away from Christ towards the “man of sin,” without a choice, after the restrainer is removed.

 

Now let us consider the second part that deals with “falling beyond,” in Hebrews 6:4-6.  In the 6th verse we read in KJV, “If they shall fall away (parapiptw - parapipto = to fall beyond), to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

 

The prefix PARA indicates the falling is not away, but it is ‘beyond’ or ‘by the side’ of, or parallel to.  This epistle is written to the Jewish believers.  There were among them those who taught about observing the laws of Moses, including circumcision and Sabbath.  The nation that did observe the laws of Moses already crucified the Lord, their Messiah.  After becoming Christians, believers in Christ, if the Jewish Christians insist on obeying the laws of Moses, then they are falling into a parallel system that demands crucifying the Messiah again and again.  It is an open shame to them who propagate such, because the Messiah had already declared that He has finished His work on the cross, once and for all.  He is now ascended and glorified and is in the presence of the Father.  He is exalted above all by the Father.  He is the ascended and glorified Head of the Body that was formed on the Day of Pentecost by the Comforter who was sent by the Son from the Father.  If the Body, the Jewish believers are the members of the Body, that is joined to its glorified Head demands that the Head has to be crucified again, then it is an open shame.  This is the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6.  It is different from apostasy, but could be argued as related.

 

I don’t know why you included Hebrews 10:26-29 in your postings.  Therefore, I stop.

 

Shalom malekim!!!
George P. Koshy
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  Quote doghter_of_zion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2006 at 12:25am

Dear bro Koshy,

thanks for your help. I'll go home and go over it again. I thought Hebrews 10:26-29  also speaks of apostasy.

I'll think about it and write soon. Thansk for being there.

Love ya in Him,

Tinka

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  Quote doghter_of_zion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2006 at 8:57pm

Dear brothers and sisters in Him,

I have a sincere question and hope that it doesn't offend anyone.

when I'm to share my testimony in the assembly, wouldn't it be against the Scriptural teaching prohibiting women to speak in the church?

thanks for your help n patience

God bless u

Tinka

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  Quote sunilajoseph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2006 at 3:33am

Tinka,

If you want to say your testimony in your church, you have to tell one of the elders before meeting starts that you want to say your testimony. If he allows you, you can say your testimony in the church. I couldn't find a verse that says women can stand and say in the sunday meeting. With their permission you can do that.  

Sunila.

 

 

 

 

Sunila.
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  Quote doghter_of_zion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 June 2006 at 8:46pm

Dear co-beleivers in HIM,

on apstacy this is what I would like to stress:

An apostate can never be saved (Heb 6:4-6, Heb 10:26, 2 Pet 2:21, 1 John 5:16). The scenario about an apostate changing his mind is hypothetical. The definition of an apostate is someone who is beyond salvation, so if someone seems to be an apostate but then changes and becomes a true believer, that simply proves that he was never really an apostate.
 
well, I hope the Lord will help me understand what is the truth, according to the word of God, as I hope to understand the "love letter" God has given us.
i hope you all who are much more mature than me, will help me to understand it, tell me directly if it is wrong, what I beleive.
I thank you for all you help, love and guidance.
God bless you,
with love and regards in HIM,
Tinka
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  Quote George P. Koshy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2006 at 12:18am

Sunilajoseph,

Are you propagating that you can encourage others to violate the scriptures? (In reference to your posting of 25 June 2006)

You quote, of course out of context, 1 Corinthians 14 to justify your speaking in unknown languages.  Now you are asking to violate what the Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul to write as we read in the same chapter, starting at verse 34.  You should read them.

Shalom malekim!!!
George P. Koshy
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  Quote sunilajoseph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2006 at 9:33am

Gpk,

If the elders allow her to say her testimony, she can do it. She is submissive to the elders (men in the assembly).

 

 

 

 

Sunila.
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  Quote drjcp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 June 2006 at 4:03pm
Dear Sunila

would you kindly address the main issue, and do not multiply statements. Let us have some meaningful dialogue instead of an endless loop of unconnected statement.  Dr. George P Koshy has already placed his questions to you. Would you please address them before going on to new statements.

Johnson C. Philip
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www.BiblicalArcheology.net
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