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doghter_of_zion View Drop Down
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  Quote doghter_of_zion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 September 2006 at 9:24pm

Dear bro George,

would you kindly tell me the site adress, where it is found. I went through those found on the general forum in this site, but couldn't locate it.

thanks so much

God bless u,

Tinka

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George P. Koshy View Drop Down
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  Quote George P. Koshy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 September 2006 at 1:52am

Dear Tinka,

The following is better than the one I referred to, before.  You may see this in KeralaBrethren.net.  You don't need to search for it.  It is copied here.

Why Not Calvinism or Armenianism

 

The scripture divides men into two groups, say, saved and unsaved, Jews and nations, etc.  This is an act of God according to His absolute knowledge.  Is it appropriate for man who has only partial knowledge of things to bifurcate men?  This question is relevant in connection with grouping believers into classes, such as, Armenians and Calvinists.

 

Armenianism and Calvinism are man made systems and for any one to demand that believers must belong to one or the other is not according to scriptures, especially in the light of 1 Cor. 1:12-13.  All man made systems are incomplete and not desirable for a believer to be limited within its bounds.  Incomplete, in the sense that they leave out certain truths from the scripture, deny certain truths in the scripture, and/or add certain rules that are not in the scripture at par with it.  The one who prefer to be called Armenian or Calvinist willingly places himself/herself in an additional category similar to that listed in 1 Cor. 1:12-13.

 

The controversy does not arise from what is generally considered as its cause.  This controversy is rooted in not distinguishing the necessary difference between ‘propitiation’ and ‘substitution.’  Propitiation and substitution are two of the more than 43 actions that are necessary on a sinner in connection with his atonement.  All those are accomplished through the finished work of Christ.

 

 A study of Leviticus 16 will help us to understand the significance of these two actions.  There we read about a bullock and two goats.  One of the goats is ‘Jehovah’s lot’ and the other is of Azazel (scapegoat), the one that goes away or carries away.  After bullock is offered as a sin offering for Aaron, the goat, which was called Jehovah’s lot, was also offered and its blood was sprinkled upon and before the mercy seat and then on and around the altar.  This action of making atonement for the sanctuary, the tent of the meeting, and the altar is the type of ‘propitiation.’  The holy presence of God was dishonored and offended by sin of disobedience of man.  By His perfect obedience to the Father, Christ has perfectly glorified God where man dishonored by his sin. By this sprinkling of the blood, God is satisfied, glorified, and whosoever comes by that blood is freely and fully received by God, of God, and to God.  There was no confession of sin on the head of the goat of Jehovah’s lot.  It was simply blood offered to God because of the sinfulness of Israel and sin was dealt with judgment according to God’s glory.  This is the meaning of propitiation as we read in the scriptures.  “He is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)  “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son a propitiation for our sins.” (1 John 4:10)  The Greek word for propitiation is HILASMOS, meaning ‘what appeases,’ or ‘propitiates.’  In the New Testament (NT) and in Septuagint (LXX) this word is used, as quoted above, with respect to God and never in connection with any act of man to bring God into a gracious disposition.  Through the vicarious sacrifice of His Son, it is God who ‘propitiated’ by vindicating His holy and righteous character.  Thus God dealt with sin, He showed mercy to the undeserving sinner when believed by removing his guilt and the remission of his sins.  In Hebrews 2:17-18 we read, “Wherefore it behoved him in all things to be made like to [his] brethren, that he night be a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make propitiation (HILASKESThAI) for the sins of the people; for in that himself suffered, being tempted, he is able to help those that are being tempted.”  In KJV, “to make propitiation” is erroneously translated as, “to make reconciliation.”  The scriptures never teach us that God is being reconciled to any of His creation.  Man is reconciled to God, but God is never reconciled to man.

 

In Romans 3:25, the place of propitiation is indicated by HILASTERION.  “Whom God has set forth a mercy-seat (propitiation, KJV), through faith in His blood, for the showing forth of his righteousness, in respect of the passing by the sins that had taken place before, through the forbearance of God.”  Hebrews 9:5, “And above over it the cherubim of glory shadowing the mercy-seat; concerning which it is not now [the time] to speak in detail.”  In Exodus 25:18, 19, 20, 21, 22; 31:7; 35:12; 37:7, 8, 9; Lev. 16:2, 13,14, 15; Num. 7:89 are attesting to the same.  In Romans 3:25, this place of propitiation is Christ Himself and ‘His blood’ is directly connected with the act of propitiation.

 

In Leviticus 16, the blood of the goat of Jehovah’s lot was sprinkled on and before the mercy seat by the high priest once a year.  This was a type of what Christ did, “But Christ being come high priest of the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, (that is, not of this creation,) nor by blood of goats and calves, but by his won blood, has entered in once for all into the [holy of] holies, having found an eternal redemption…”  Here Christ Himself sprinkled His blood as the high priest on Himself at the holy of holies, before the Father.  Thus God is satisfied, the propitiation took place, and our entrance into God’s presence is completed.  It was not towards man, it was to God.  It was not on this earth, it was in the holy of holies.

 

When the blood of the goat of Jehovah’s lot was sprinkled on and before the mercy seat, still Israel was responsible for the personal sins and its guilt.  Once a year, on the great Day of Atonement, the high priest after coming out of the holy of holies after sprinkling the blood of the goat of Jehovah’s lot, confessed the people’s sins on the scapegoat, the goat that carries away.  He laid both hands on the head of that goat and confessed the personal sins of the people and they are transferred to that goat.  The high priest is doing this as the representative of the people.  Then, the scapegoat is sent away into the wilderness and seen no more.  It carried the sins of the people by an act of substitution.  The two goats and the high priest in Leviticus 16 together made a type of Christ and His vicarious death.  One goat is the propitiation before God and the other substitution to man.  One is satisfying God’s demand and the other carrying away of our sins.  Those sins are not seen any more.

 

The two goats represent the two aspects of Christ’s sacrifice, towards God and bearing our sins away.  In Leviticus, Christ is represented in type by the high priest, the two goats, and the mercy seat.  In the goat that was killed, He is our propitiation for the sin of the whole world.  His work was fully completed for the world.  His blood was sprinkled on and before the mercy seat as a propitiation for the world.  Therefore we read, “For God so loved the world, he sent his only begotten Son …”  In this respect we also read about “whosoever” repeatedly in the scriptures.  We also read in 1 Timothy 2:2-6, “Who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.  …, who gave himself a ransom for all, …”  In 1 John 2:2 we read, “He is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world.”  In 1 John 4:10 again we read, “Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son a propitiation for our sins.”  The aspect of propitiation in relation to our salvation lies in the blood of the lamb that was shed for us.  In OT, this blood was taken into the holy of holies and sprinkled it on and before the mercy-seat.  In Romans 3:25, we read that the mercy-seat is our Lord Jesus Christ.  On the atonement day, the blood was shed and sprinkled on the mercy seat for the removal of all hindrances.  After that the sins of the people were confessed over the head of the scapegoat.  The blood on the mercy-seat is the basis of God’s invitation to the sinner.

 

When it comes to bearing our sins, the language has a consistent change from ‘all’ to ‘many.’  “So then as [it was] by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.  For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous” (Romans 5:18-19).  First, we read about our sins and our justification is left open to ‘all men,’ who can use that justification.  This act of using is only through faith.  Both the Jews and Gentiles can use it (Romans 10:12-13).  Second, In Romans 5:19 we read that ‘many’ will be counted righteous.  There is a stark contrast between the ‘all’ and ‘many’ in these verses.  ‘All men’ were condemned because of one offended, and ‘all men’ were for justification because of one’s righteousness.  When it comes to be constituted (to establish formally) as sinners, it is ‘many.’  Similarly, ‘many’ are constituted or formally establish as righteous, it is also ‘many.’  This use of the word ‘many’ is very different from the use of the word ‘all.’  The many sinners are connected with Adam and the many righteouses are connected with Christ.  In the scripture we do no read about Christ bearing the sins of all men.  In Hebrews 9:28 we read, “Thus the Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, …”  Again in 1 Peter 2:24, “Who himself bore our sins in the body on the tree, …”  Therefore, the scriptures teach that the bearing of sin is not for all, but for many.  In bearing our sins, He is our substitution.  Substitution transfers the guilt and crime from the guilty to another, who is innocent of that charges.  There it is mandatory to have representation, transfer, substitution, and an effectual work for the represented.  Substitution is simple and intelligible.  In Leviticus 16, the high priest on the head of the goat confessed the sins of the people, and the goat effectively carries them away.  The same happened on the cross, on our behalf.  While in sprinkling of the blood on and before the mercy seat, He is our propitiation.  Not only the Lord Jesus Christ has put away sin, He also borne all our sins, as if they were His own.  The result was that those sins are gone.  We never read that our Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world.  In Romans 6 and 7 we read that we are dead and justified from sin.

 

Propitiation is presenting to a holy God what was claimed by the righteousness and holiness of God.  Substitution is for people whom the substitute represents.  The efficacy of substitution rests upon the acceptance and the actual transfer of guilt to the substitute.  When the sins are transferred and gone and the Son of God died in our place, then it is irreversible.  The teaching of losing salvation is the denial of real substitution, the denial of the efficacy work of the Son of Man, and substitution is confounded with propitiation.  When one teach the possibility of losing salvation once it was accepted is confounding substitution and propitiation.  Propitiation is God-ward and carrying away of our sins is clearly taught in the Gospel of John.  In John 3:16 we read, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal.”  Here is the testimony of propitiation.  Here the whole world is included.  In John 17:9, we read in the Lord’s prayer to the Father, “I do not pray for this world …”  Why is the Son do not pray for the world the Father loved?  If we read further down in chapter 17, we read that the Lord Jesus Christ prayed for His disciples and for all those who believe through their word.  That is, He prayed for us also.  In 1 Corinthians 11:32, the world is condemned, but we are not.  In 2 Corinthians 5:19, we read that we are that world that is reconciled to God through Him.  In John 3:16 we see the propitiation, and in John 17:9 we see the substitution.  In the first, we see the goat whose lot was of Jehovah, and in the later we see the goat that carried away the sins of the people to be seen no more.  There is a difference between the unbelieving world and the believing world.  We read that the Father loved the world, but never by the Son.  We read that the Son loved the Assembly (EKKLESIA) and she is the bride.  His love to the Assembly was a special relationship.  We never read that the Father loved the Assembly.  Here is the secret of the great salvation acts of propitiation and substitution.

 

Here is the difference between Armenians and Calvinists.  Armenians teach Christ dying for all and confounds the bearing of sins with it, making it the same.  This confounding of the two actions produces confusion as to the efficacy and effectiveness of Christ bearing our sins, thus they deny any special work for His people.  They deny the truth that Christ loved only the ‘many’ because the Father loved ‘all.’  The result is uncertainty of salvation and the teaching that a saved person could lose his/her salvation.  Those who subscribe to this teaching often exalt man.  They usually set aside the scapegoat and see only the goat whose lot was of Jehovah’s.  Thus, they deny a sovereign God.

 

What about Calvinists?  They hold that they are effectually saved because Christ carried away their sins.  They will not lose their salvation, because the sins were born by the Lamb of God not to seen any more.  They see nothing else.  They accept the fact that Christ died for the EKKLESIA.  They do not see Christ dying for all, as in propitiation.  They see only the scapegoat and not the goat whose lot was that of Jehovah’s.  They also place a man in Romans 7, and permanently keep him there.  They never consider placing him in Romans 2 and 3.

 

Those who are in the habit of bifurcating believers into two camps as Armenians or Calvinists are doing a great disservice to the cause of Christianity.  If we  prefer to follow  partial teachings, it could lead us into errors.  Though the Calvinists are closer to the scriptures than the Armenians, both hold only partial truth. 

 

Shalom malekim!!!
George P. Koshy
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doghter_of_zion View Drop Down
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  Quote doghter_of_zion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2006 at 8:53pm

Dear bro George,

Let me first thank you for explaining the difference so wonderfully.

Sorry I couldn’t write before, as I had not been able to read it completely. Now on completing it, I first desired to give my heart full of gratitude.

I thank God for all you. Indeed I learnt a lot today, from your postings.

I have no question or doubt regarding after reading it.

However in future if I have any, I shall ask you, and I hope you’ll help me out.

God bless you,

Ur sis in HIM,

Tinka



Edited by George P. Koshy
Maranatha!!!
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  Quote doghter_of_zion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 September 2006 at 8:50pm

Dear brethren,

can you help me be clear about one idea.

In our family(Hindu, Brahmin) they have a lot of "pooja"(hindu festival of worshippind idols). They make a lot of food and offer them to idols.

Now is it wrong to have that food. I thought that it was not wrong as the idols are nothing, and food, which is from things created by God, and all things that God created is good.

So can I have that food and part-take from the Lord's Supper also?

Please help me understand, as Durga Pooja(hindu festival) is at hand, and everyday I'll have to have those food, as no other food shall be available.

ur sis in HIM,

Tinka

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  Quote sambudhanoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 September 2006 at 11:36pm

Dear Sister

 

1 Corinthians 10: 27-32 and

1 Corinthians 8: 7 – 12  are the scriptures dealt with your question.

 

As the food is from your own house, you may not have any other choice.

You may praise and pray before having the food and keep a clear conscience.

Thus you may not be a hindrance to your unbelieving family members.

 

Take advise from your mentor as well as the elders of your assembly.

 

Yours in Christ.

 

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  Quote doghter_of_zion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 September 2006 at 1:32am

Dear bro,

I do pray...rather remember 2 pray(as i dont have a wonderful memory)...so thats by God's grace that I can say grace/pray.

But my family members seem to show a great show of victory, everytime i have food offered to idols, as normally when they mention it as being so, I refuse.

so doesn't it show that I'm glorifying those idols when i have food offered to them? They want me to be "open" in all respect, which obviously includes that all religion is just a way to God and we shudn't show disrespect to any rather accept all ways.

Is it right to have food offered to idols, which shows we take part in those devilish practices, and take part from the Lord's Supper?

sincerely in Christ,

Tinka

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  Quote sambudhanoor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 October 2006 at 5:10pm

Dear Sister

 

As I already mentioned you will have to meditate 1 Corinthians 10:27-32 & 1 Corinthians 8: 7-12, you will get the answer from there.

 

First of all our conscience need to be clear and other brothers conscience also respected.

 

Your case is between your unbelieving family members and you.

 

If you do not have any other choice, have the food after a praise and pray, thus your conscience will be clear and you are not glorifying the idols.

 

If needed you can tell your unbelieving family members that you are praying to and praising my God before having the food.

 

Victory is not for having the food or not rather it is our eternal destiny.

You are victorious as you are having the eternal life and will be ever with our Lord & God (but your family members may not understand this).

 

We cannot accept all religions are the way to God, their aim is to access to God by their belief, but not.

 

There is only one way to God, through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

Act 4:12  And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.

 

Yours in Christ.

 

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  Quote doghter_of_zion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2006 at 1:17am

bro,

they dont understand. If I say yes, they want me to go further to make que in temple n have food, n go to see idol worship n participate, and also if i say no they say I'm dogmatic!

However I'm sure God'll help me to be faithful to Him,

sincerely in Christ,

Tinka

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  Quote sunilajoseph Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2006 at 8:32am

Tinka,

Read Romans chapter 14. I think stay home is ok. Always pray for the food before you eat.  What ever you do, you get hard time  because you are the only born again christian in your family. Do not sin. If you have no other place to go out to eat other than your home, pray in your heart and stay home. Try to concentrate on Christ and in you, when they say bad things. Jesus says this is the way. Follow me. He will guide you to the end. Read few chapters of bible daily with an open heart to receive it. This is not the right time for you to go into detailed study of the bible  because you are young in christ.  Start reading from Romans to Jude. There are so much things in those books.  Most of your questions will be answered there. Thats what you need now.  Just read it and understand. I pray for you. God will guide you.

 

Sunila.
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  Quote John Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 October 2006 at 3:37am
Dear Sunila Joseph,

Where on earth do you get some of your ideas? How can you tell our sister Tinka that "this is not the right time to go into a detailed study of the bible because she is young in Christ"? You advise her to "start reading from Romans to Jude". Why? The four gospels are the beginning of the story of Jesus as far as the scriptural record is concerned. Why not start with them? For that matter what part of the Bible is unsuitable for a young christian?

Dear Tinka, satisfy your thirst for the Word of God to the full, and then come back for more! Study the detail of scripture and then stand back "mentally" and enjoy its broad canvas. Arguably the greatest preacher of modern times, Charles Hadden Spurgeon, had not yet reached the age of twenty before he preached to thousands! Many of his sermons are available on the internet and make wonderful reading. Never be afraid to study scripture, any scripture, all scripture!

Let me confess my greatest regret to you, as far as my christian life is concerned. It is that in my early years I did not devote much, much more of my time to studying the scriptures.

Your brother in Christ,

John

Edited by John Miller
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